The more I see people say "Litchi is an antagonist"... You know what, something inside me dies.

So... all those kindness... lies? She only cared about Arakune and that's it? Does she know that with NOL, she'd get ordered to do something against her kindness? Or as I said, if that kindness is just a lie and her true self was a self-serving person...

Perhaps her love with Arakune was her main trait, but who here was also encaptivated with her 'fake' kindness and wished it was the main personality that will prevail over her individual love instead?

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Don't wanna sound like a hypocrite. Sig will be as gloomy as me.
Though...
http://tiny.cc/uw386

Alright, if you really want to know how I feel about it, then the answer is "just fine".

Honestly I don't see where you're coming from with this "massive betrayal" business. Who exactly do you think she betrayed specifically? I don't recall her ever promising anyone anything. She's always done what she could to help people along the way in her quest to save Arakune, but Arakune always took precedent. I'm not sure where you got the feeling it was otherwise.

(I'm such a sucker for debates)

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Probably those people would not feel betrayed. But probably because I was looking at Litchi as an example of 'morally white' character due to her tendency to help people. Perhaps that's why I feel betrayed because Litchi proves herself to be not so white after all. I just don't know how I should look at her: Good or Neutral?

She told Linhua that "She's happy the way it is". She told the Kaka Clan Elder that "Orient Town needs her, it's her new home when she finishes her job." Her action to join NOL? Looks more like saying, "Screw you all. You're all insignificant compared to Arakune..." It sounds like all her kindness so far is... a lie. A lie to get by Orient Town/Kaka Village in order to get near Arakune more.

Perhaps I was looking at her from the wrong angle? Because from morality/goodness-evilness scale, Litchi utterly failed. But on the scale of love/romantic? Since what she's doing is like how the Heaven's Feel scenario is done (if you know Fate/stay night), perhaps she is doing the right thing...

_________________
Don't wanna sound like a hypocrite. Sig will be as gloomy as me.
Though...
http://tiny.cc/uw386

You make it sound like she maliciously intended to let them down all along and intends to never help them ever again. She's become the good being manipulated by evil, not evil herself, she'll continue to do what's right as much as Hazama allows her to while maintaining his "deal". It happens in stories all the time.

She joined the NOL because she cares about Arakune too much for her own good, no other reason, nor does she realize what she's signed up for fully. As far as she knows the NOL is good.

Arakune was her significant other, which means just that, he's significant to her. Moreso than a stranger in Orient Town by definition. She truly did care for everyone she encountered, and still does, but she cares for Arakune more, it's her defining character flaw.

I think you were looking too much for Litchi to be a force of raw good here, when she's really more a sympathetic/loving helper while trying to find her own lost love in the meantime. She has been since CT. Anyway, thats the way I viewed her so I guess that's why you were let down and I wasn't.

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I guess you're right, Jdietz. If I wanted that, I should've looked at Bang instead. And I just confirms that my comparison between her and Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel is kind of similar in terms of "Endanger the world in order to save a beloved". I stood that one (and accepts that it's considered Good), and I couldn't stood this one. *sigh* I should be able to.

Still there is no sign of Litchi trying to struggle, if any of her dialogue with Rachel is any indication, it's as if she can't seem to do anything on her own and has completely gave in, nor did she plan to sabotage NOL in the meantime.

Sorry, but I'm just taking it from what's shown thus far.

Though on terms of manipulation, am I the only one who thinks that she's not manipulated at all? She's just... there on her own will. Hazama might be even telling the honest truth about they have the cure. It's like Hazama is a peddler that sells something rare, and at first Litchi refused. But in the end, she realized that she NEEDS that item so she goes to Hazama to get it.

I would think that if she's manipulated, she had to be fed up with some nasty infos that breaks her mind, kinda like Tsubaki, or be forced to do it FROM Terumi's side, rather than coming to the conclusion herself. Like this, maybe...

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6845/doitdoitdoit.jpg

_________________
Don't wanna sound like a hypocrite. Sig will be as gloomy as me.
Though...
http://tiny.cc/uw386

Hate to double post, but I realized that perhaps I wasn't answering to some... I just love debates like this...



What I'm implying from my words was that perhaps she wasn't maliciously intending to let them down, but she wasn't even looking at them. I'm implying that she might think that 'they're all nothing, so it's okay for me to abandon them', not 'Ha! Abandoning you all is part of my plan!'. The second may be worse, but the first is still BAD.



Hm, I will agree to how you view her, but I don't really think she's a force raw of good. I just think she's a morally white character, AKA someone who has high standards of moral judging on how she treats everyone not Arakune with kindness. When she joined the bad guys, and even said she didn't care what Hazama is, I thought that she just proves that she is amoral all along, which was why there was that 'betrayal'. Be it 'force of good' or a 'good moral character', she pretty much went against it.

Or perhaps there's something that I thought and hoped would be true, but doubtful. Both her amorality and kindness makes her Litchi. A person can have many personalities, and just because one personality became subdued while the other is taking main stage, doesn't mean that one personality is gone. Just because she's willing to risk the world be destroyed to save Arakune doesn't mean her 'kind to everyone' persona is gone. Am I correct in this or?

_________________
Don't wanna sound like a hypocrite. Sig will be as gloomy as me.
Though...
http://tiny.cc/uw386

Litchi was forced to make a very difficult choice. She isn't fond of the NOL herself but when hazama tells her that they can save Arakune, she is now in a dilemma. First there's the possibility that he was lying(which I think he was or at least not telling her the whole truth) and she can dismiss him. But if he's not lying and then it may her only chance to save the man she cares for more than anything apparently. Yes even the people of oreint town aren't as important to her as saving arakune. I mean she is willing to kill herself to save him because, and this is just what I think, she blames herself for what happened to him and the guilt is tearing her up inside.

So in joining with them she hopes that they will save him in exchange for her help. Also she knows she doesn't have much time since the boundary power that she has is slowly killing her. Now while Arakune does tell her to stop what she's doing and forget about him, understand how hard it really must be for her to do that. If she could be dissuaded by mere words she wouldn't have gone as far as she has.

I personally really sympathize with Litchi and I also see her story ending tragically. But she doesn't seem all that selfish to me. I mean I can understand her ignoring Arakune's request to leave him but I don't think that's selfish. She is't doing it to bring him back to her, but just to save him even at the cost of her own life which is the ultimate price to pay for anything. So I don't see how that's selfish. In fact Litchi seems pretty selfless to me. I think she's a great and very admirable character. In fact I like Litchi as a character for many of the same reasons that I like Tsubaki's character.

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http://www.fanfiction.net/u/3342162/ - Check out my amateur writing lol

This is what... hit me the hardest. If this was the actual truth, then this goes like if she's told about 'Why not burn Orient Town to ground, then we'll tell you more about the cure'... then she might do it. After all, she chose Arakune over them, right? But, Jdietz and other people (somewhere else) has convinced me that she could love both and would have a hard time accepting such task even if it's for Arakune, so I guess I could let that slide...

Though, the first impression of many people about her when they learn the truth wasn't really pretty, and I thought the majority of people still think that way, but I guess this forum proved me wrong.

All I hope is that with these discussions, I will have the courage to look at her with a straight face as I face the True Ending, and probably sub her later. Thank you for being considerate, Chain Revolver.

_________________
Don't wanna sound like a hypocrite. Sig will be as gloomy as me.
Though...
http://tiny.cc/uw386

What you really need to realize is that Litchi is twistedly selfless for going to great lengths to save Arakune, not selfish for loving him in the first place.

The list of Litchi priorities goes:
1. Arakune
2. Others
3. Self

That's what makes her selfless rather than selfish.

Also "I'm going to have to leave to find Arakune" is vastly different from "I'm going to burn you all for Arakune", and is a choice I can't see Litchi ever making.

(it's getting harder and harder for me to post in these without getting personally fed up with you for being thickheaded. I suspect this may be my last post on the matter. I get this feeling you're only making these topics in hope someone shares, and therefore validates, your own views instead of seeking a better understanding)

_________________
R.I.P.:
XBL: Jdietz43 PSN:Kokonoes_Lolly

Well, then apologies for being thickheaded, but trust me, it's things like this that makes me feel glad, to be told off that my thoughts are wrong, that it's still okay to like her, and that she's not as bad as I thought her to be. Did you miss the part on my previous post that "Thanks to your convincing that I could let it slide"?

I agree that Litchi wouldn't make the "I will burn you all for Arakune" choice. But do you see her doing it, even with regrets and all, if she is cornered by Hazama and told her that this would be the only way to save Arakune?

Remember this is not 'making the choice willingly', but 'be forced to'. Since I acknowledge that one of her flaws is 'weak heart'. With people like Hazama, Relius or Saya around, it would be easy to bully her into submission and unless she is on the eventual phase "I let go of Arakune", I just have a hard time to see her saying, "Even if it's for him, I refuse!". Now trust me, I'd love her to just say that, but considering her weak heart, doing so before she is in that 'letting go' phase just seem like awkward, or something of an Ass Pull...

I think this will be my last argument as well... I hope if in any case you reply this, I will have no more arguments and can like her the same way I did in CT.

_________________
Don't wanna sound like a hypocrite. Sig will be as gloomy as me.
Though...
http://tiny.cc/uw386